Today, Friday the 13th as it happens, is the one-year anniversary of the publication of my conversation with Doc Ahmad Malik.
Although it’s only been one year, it feels like a lifetime ago, and in a way, it was. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I only had five more weeks to treasure Michael, the love of my life, Patron Saint of Insects, my favorite composer, and my spiritual guide.
The video thumbnail features the last photo Michael took of me. He shot it along with a serious one just after this podcast was recorded. Ahmad chose the smiling one, which felt more fitting for our jubilant conversation.
Ahmad is the closest I have to a brother. We felt a profound kinship from the moment Mike Yeadon introduced us, as I shared in the Profile in Courage I wrote on Ahmad accompanying the video of his reading of Eulogy for the COVID Kapos.
We are in synch on pretty much every issue we’ve discussed. We are both scouts (truth-seekers) as opposed to soldiers (belief-defenders).
Ahmad’s recent post on The Final Goal and Plan of the Ruling Oligarchy was like reading a distilled version of my notes for my Corona Investigative Committee presentation from three years ago. We independently arrived at nearly identical conclusions regarding the goals of the cruelites, philanthropaths, and tyrants—mine based on examining tens of thousands of pieces of evidence and Ahmad’s based on interviewing hundreds of erudite guests with encyclopedic expertise spanning a diverse array of topics.
We cover all these subjects and far more in this exhilarating, broad-spectrum Apocaloptimistic conversation. I hope you will have as much fun watching (or reading) it as we had making it.
My Doc Malik Interview
#187 - Mistakes Were Not Made
June 13, 2024
AM:
Before we dive into this brilliant podcast with my lovely friend Margaret Anna Alice—she’s so cool, what do you expect, I mean, she’s an eighties kid like me. She’s just wonderful, wonderful human being.
[Reads subscriber messages.]
So without further ado, let’s crack on with the podcast with Margaret Anna Alice, an incredible human being. I love her to bits. And if you don’t know her, you’ve never heard of before, after this podcast, I swear you will, too. Alright, folks, enjoy.
AM:
Man, I have been so excited about talking to you. You have no idea. I’ve been giddy like a little kid. Then the sun came out today, and there’s literally no clouds, and there’s not even any chem trails. I saw two planes crossing, and it was proper con trails that just disappeared. And I was like, “Oh man, it’s such a beautiful day, I want to sit outside in the sun.” And I was like, “No, I’m going to be speaking to Margaret Anna Alice. It’s going to be awesome.”
I’ve got so many things to think about, but one of the things I quickly want to get off my chest is thank you, Mike Yeadon, for making the introduction. Shoutout to Mike Yeadon. What a legend.
MAA:
Yes, absolutely. I adore him. And he knew we were going to be kindred spirits. He is one of those few courageous individuals of integrity I have such profound respect for, and I am so grateful for his friendship.
AM:
The second thing I want to say to you is, man, do you know, remember that spiel I gave about sleep hygiene and proper sleep? Guess what? I went to bed at one in the morning last night.
MAA:
Oh no. What happened? Well, maybe you don’t want to say.
AM:
No, I do. I think it’s going to be hilarious. Do you remember that whole TWC hit job thing on me?
MAA:
Yeah.
AM:
So there’s a paramedic in the UK who used to have a podcast, doesn’t have any more, real freedom fighter, great guy. He invited me once on his podcast, and, for whatever reason, it didn’t happen. He was piling in and having a go at me after reading that tweet.
And I messaged him and said, “Dude, what the heck, man? Why are you falling for this?” And he was like, blah blah. He was angry, really angry. And I said, “Look, I forgive you. I forgive you.”
And then he called back, “Who do you think you are to forgive me?”
But I persisted because I know he’s a good guy. And I said, “Look, dude, let’s just chat.”
This was a week, two weeks ago, whenever it happened. And we had a nice chat. And he said, “I’m sorry, I read your Substack. I got it totally wrong. I’m just angry at the evil people, and I lashed out at you, and I’m really sorry.” And he said, “I’m coming down to London.”
MAA:
That’s such a rare occurrence.
AM:
Right? And he lives about 400 miles away. And he said, “I’m coming down to London for a movie premiere, Playing God, and can I meet up with you?”
And I said, “Look, let’s do something even better. Why don’t you come down, and we’ll do a podcast, too?”
The only time he had was in the evening. Yeah, last night. So we met, he brought his friend Cy—shoutout to him—and it went from nine o’clock to 12:30.
My hay fever blocked my nose. I couldn’t breathe in my nose. And then I went to sleep just after one. And I woke up at six, and I looked at the sunrise. Got my circadian rhythm reset. But yeah, I’m a little bit sleepy now.
MAA:
After all that lecturing you gave me.
AM:
I’m nothing but honest.
MAA:
Yes, absolutely. One of the things I love about you.
AM:
Oh, Lord. Look, you are a gifted writer, Margaret, and I was talking about this yesterday when I read your writing, I can tell it’s you. You’ve got this little lilt to it, this musical undertone. It is rhyming, but it’s not rhyming. It’s really weird. I love it. I love it. It’s very relaxing, actually.
I want to ask you, how did you get into it? What were you doing before, and how did you end up becoming this prolific Substack writer with a huge following, writing these amazing pieces, really detailed? Most of my Substack pieces are like, “I had a conversation with this person. They’re really interesting. Check it out.” But you are great, really thought-provoking. How did you get into it?
MAA:
Thank you. Do you mean writing in general or the whole COVID act of some sort?
AM:
Before your Substack, were you a writer? Were you a professional writer? I mean, what was your day job?
MAA:
I’ve been writing since I was a child. First, I was a reader, and I have to thank my mom for teaching me to read when I was four years old before I started kindergarten. That kicked off my passion for reading. My entire life, I’ve been a voracious reader all across disciplines. As someone who’s passionate about books, I naturally started writing myself and have been doing that my entire life. But a lot of my time was focused more on professional writing and things I had to do for work and other people and clients. My husband and I started our own creative agency in 2010. We gradually built our clientele, and pretty much my entire life was dedicated to serving clients, so I put my own creative projects on the back burner. I had unfinished books in progress. I do digital collages as well and documentaries. I had all these creative projects that I put in a drawer because I was prioritizing client work. And then 2020 hit, and our client work started drying up because our clients were taking a huge hit from the lockdowns and all the COVID nonsense. As horrible as that was, it opened up a window for me to return to my own creative projects and writing.
And because what I was witnessing was so historically unprecedented, I immediately recognized the propaganda rollout, the lies that were being told about health and wellness. I knew all of the medical “advice” and interventions they were recommended contravened everything that had been previously recommended for containing respiratory viruses and “pandemics,” things like that. This entire scenario was so different from everything that had happened in the past. I instinctively knew they were planning something that was bigger than what they were saying.
I had studied, like I said, a range of disciplines—health and wellness, propaganda, totalitarianism, genocide, history—all these things I’ve been studying throughout my life I was passionate about all converged in this one COVID tyranny experiment.
I couldn’t help but start speaking out about it. I know how important it is to speak up when you see things like this because if you look at totalitarian governments throughout history, they rely on the silence and cowardice of citizens. So I knew I had to say something.
Initially, I was reaching out to people locally through things like Nextdoor.com. And what I started finding is it very quickly became almost impossible to communicate because almost every time I would share a link to—as you know, my writing is all about substantiating evidence for any claims I make, I link to resources so people can evaluate and make decisions for themselves—every time I’d send a link or even mention like Mike Yeadon’s name (he was one of the first people I saw thanks to the Corona Investigative Committee; I was watching those presentations, and I saw his, and I saw that clip, he was talking about digital ID very early on, and I was trying to share information about that), my comments would get censored immediately. I called them the censorship fairies. It became so frustrating.
One time, someone made a post that said, “These masks are not about health. They’re all about control.” I wrote a response to that that was quite lengthy. By the time I finished writing my response, I went back, and that post had been deleted. So I was like, “This is getting ridiculous. They are not letting us communicate. They’re not letting us share information with our neighbors, with people in the community. I know they’re doing it to discourage us from communicating, but I have to find another way to get this information out there.”
I had been thinking for maybe a year or so about starting a Substack ever since I learned about it. I thought, wow, what a great model where you can be supported directly by readers, and you don’t have to compromise your integrity by getting sponsors or doing ads or any of that crap. Just writer to reader, I love that model.
My husband suggested, when I read him the comment I was planning to post on Nextdoor.com, he said, “Well, that would be a really good article for OffGuardian.” He suggested I submit it there. So I thought, “Okay, well this is the moment. I’m going to start a Substack, put it up there so I have a home for it, and then submit it to OffGuardian.”
I did that in an afternoon. Really, my tendency is to be a perfectionist and do all the perfecting, the planning, everything. And I thought, “Nope, I’m just going to focus on writing. I’m not gonna to make a website or do all these things that take attention away from the content itself, and I’m going to just use what Substack has set up.” So I set it up in an afternoon, and I sent it off to OffGuardian.
That was my first essay, A Primer for the Propagandized: Fear Is the Mind Killer.
Then I kind of forgot about it for two or three weeks. Then Kit Knightly at OffGuardian got back to me and said they would love to publish it. They released it. And that initial article went viral. I was really surprised. I didn’t really understand how this worked, but if you put your work out there, like OffGuardian or something, all these other outlets, if they like it will pick it up. So like Lew Rockwell, Zero Hedge even picked it up, Burning Platform. Wow, and I started getting an audience from that, and I thought, okay, well I better write my next essay. And so it snowballed from there, grew very organically. I have such wonderful, literate, thoughtful, funny, bright readers, and I’m so grateful for their support.
AM:
You know what, that makes a lot of sense, your background, because now I know why you’re such a great writer. It makes complete sense. I’m going to come back to that in a second, what you wrote, but I think your pieces are really well-written, and I love the pictures. There’s a theme of your pictures that you pick. It’s the same kind of color. I dunno how to describe it. I’m not artistic, I’m not cultured. I’m the most uncultured person ever. But it’s got a very common theme and look to it, and it’s very beautiful, and it’s very thought-provoking, and it’s great. And you take time thinking about it. And I can tell you’re a perfectionist. I’m one, so I know it takes one to know one. And sometimes that can be your own enemy because you procrastinate and take too long getting things out. One of my surgeons used to say to me, Ahmad, “The enemy of good is better. You know what? Just do it. Good is good. Don’t try and pursue better.”
MAA:
Yeah, one of my mentors always said, “Good enough is sometimes good enough.” And that’s always in the back of my mind. It depends. If it’s not that important, good enough is good enough. But I really try to make each piece I publish as close to perfect as possible because my focus is on quality over quantity, and I know people’s time is valuable. If I’m putting something out there, I don’t want to half-ass it, so it has to be valuable.
AM:
That’s so funny. The parallels. We’ve got a lot in common. I think you’re a seventies child, so you grew up in the eighties. Just like me, I’m a perfectionist. And so if you were sitting here in the studio with me, my opposite, I do a little spiel with everybody before I start. I talk about how you don’t sit back and then talk into the mic and then relax, and then your voice disappears. I talk about how you talk into the mic and not around it. That changes the tone as you just noticed. And I go through all this, and a lot of them go, “You’re very professional. You’re very strict.”
I’m like, “It’s because you know what, people? The most precious thing these days is time. People are on a commute. People are on a run, people are doing some work. And when they’re listening to me, they’re giving up their precious time. I don’t take that for granted. That’s a privilege. And I need to make sure I’m doing my best and I’m producing the best content, the best audio, so that I don’t take the piss. It has to be really good.”
And it shows I respect them. And it’s funny, you’re doing the same. You’re respecting your readers’ time and valuing that. They’re looking at what you’re doing, appreciating it. And some of them may be paid subscribers, some of them might not be. Some of them at some stage will be paid subscribers. But the fact that they’re there and reading your content is in itself such a gift, and you don’t want to take it for granted.
MAA:
It is. Absolutely. I feel so much gratitude every single day.
AM:
Do you find also one of the things I love about Substack—and I created it and didn’t really do much with it, and it was only when I was squeezed into the position I was in, I was like, “I’m just going to start writing”—I never thought of myself as a writer, but it’s almost cathartic, but it’s also the community you create. And I’m sure you’re very happy with this little tribe you formed around you that’s very lovely and respectful and kind. And it’s not an echo chamber in the sense that—you know what, sod it, who cares if it is an echo chamber? It’s a good bunch of people to be stuck in there with, isn’t it?
MAA:
Yeah. I have a piece called Letter to My Karass. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term karass, but it’s from Kurt Vonnegut’s book Cat’s Cradle.
It means all of these people around the world are—without even necessarily knowing it—working together synergistically to accomplish some common goal. I feel like the people in my community and your community as well are all naturally gravitating toward one another because we’re all passionate about defending our freedom, saving lives, stopping totalitarianism and democide.
So many of the people in my community are what I call Apocaloptimists. They have this abiding belief that ultimately in the end, we will prevail. But we are also very honest about the challenges we face, and we’re looking at the stark truth head-on, and we are joining together to fight it.
AM:
Amen. Yeah, we’re optimists but realists at the same time. And I think that’s fine. You can be both. It’s all right. Look, I got out this morning to see the sunrise and sip my coffee, and I just washed myself in that beautiful sunlight and thought, “What an amazing thing creation is. And it’s okay. Everything’s going to be okay.”
MAA:
Exactly.
AM:
Sometimes it can get a bit dark and it can get a bit miserable, but you know what? It’s okay. And as long as we’re laughing and joking and loving, it’s going to be fine.
MAA:
Yeah, I think humor is the absolute key to resilience, and it helps us survive suffering and grief and whatever adversity gets thrown in our way. As long as we can still find humor and ways to laugh, then we’re going to be okay.
AM:
Can I add to that humor is also the way to resistance. It’s not just resilience, but it’s also how we resist.
MAA:
Exactly.
AM:
We laugh at their faces.
MAA:
Absolutely. Yes! And that is something I have been doing. I’ve been using satire and mockery and humiliation of the philanthropaths and tyrants and colluders whenever I can. And people really resonate with that.
AM:
Listen, before we talk about some of your pieces and your poetry as well, which I didn’t mention, I wrote a piece yesterday.
I was feeling overwhelmed, really overwhelmed. And it’s funny, since I’ve written that piece, I feel so much better, even though I was up till midnight doing a podcast and didn’t get any sleep. I feel really good about it because it’s so cathartic. I literally went out into the garden, bare feet, sat down on my deck chair, sipped my coffee, kept pushing the cat off my lap who wanted to curl up, and powered on my laptop. And within an hour wrote out why I was feeling overwhelmed. And it felt great doing that.
Then you left a comment, and as usual, it was a lot better-written than I could have ever expressed myself. And reading the comment made me feel exhausted.
For those of you listening who don’t know what I’m talking about, I was talking about why I feel overwhelmed. There were three things—podcasts and correspondence and information. Very quick recap. I was saying the podcasts, they’ve taken on a life of their own. I’ve published one, practically, one every two days for the last year. I’ve been doing so many conversations with people, and the research that’s involved with that, the scheduling, the editing, the artwork, the uploading, the blurbs. I mean, it’s a lot of work, and it’s crazy.
I’ve got a backlog, and I’m also booked up till October. And every day I get new suggestions. And it was really funny, even after I wrote that Substack, someone wrote to me saying, “Ahmad, it was great that you did that Substack, but I hate to say this to you, can you please get this person on your podcast?” I put it in the list of people to get on.
So that’s the podcast. And then the correspondence, keeping in touch with people, talking to them, phoning them, responding to DMs. I feel like I’m drowning. I’m not able to keep up anymore, and I feel bad about that.
Then the next thing was information. You’re being overloaded with information. And like you, I’ve got these hundreds of tabs and my website, and every day, my wife walks past and goes, “What the hell?” I’m like, “Yeah, I know.”
And then I’ve got a library of unread books and links to podcasts I need to listen to. Again, I’m drowning. And every day I find out some new information and it’s like, “Oh my God, just when I thought things couldn’t get any worse, there’s even more shit going on. What the heck?”
Then you wrote something, and I want people to understand what it’s like. We seem to be living very similar lives. I know you’re not doing podcasting, but you’re writing, you’re a content creator. We have a lot in common. I dunno if you remember what you wrote. Can you talk about that for a second and what your life is like and what you’re doing?
MAA:
I think I said how much I resonated with your post because it described how I feel on a daily basis. Especially after doing this for over four years now, I have been researching the hell out of every single topic that comes my way. I have so much intellectual curiosity that I’ll start researching one topic, and it’ll lead to another rabbit-hole, which leads to another rabbit-hole. I go on these fascinating journeys, and I collect all of this information. And I remember Mike Yeadon used the phrase in an email to me, he called me a cultural magpie, something like that.
I find all these bits of information that are so fascinating and are opening my mind and helping me see all these things that I didn’t understand before. All these puzzle pieces are coming together, and it’s a really exciting process. I get wrapped up in that. So every day, I get hundreds of emails, hundreds of Substack articles. I think I’m signed up to more than 700 Substacks.
AM:
What? Oh my goodness.
MAA:
I know. It’s completely insane. I gave up trying to read all of them. I used to at least open them up and heart them or something, but I had to, over a year ago, I said, “Okay, something has to give, and it has to be this.” But if it’s someone I like—I’ll always open up your email, your Substack, even if I don’t have time to listen to the podcast, I’ll at least see what it’s about and save it for later. So what happens is I end up with hundreds and hundreds of tabs that will accumulate over time, and then my browser starts to implode. “Okay, so I have to do cleanup.” Then I go in and I bookmark-all, and then I date it. These are all the hundreds of tabs in each window, and then I close twenty windows or maybe more each with fifty or more tabs. “Okay, I’ll get to those later,” which of course doesn’t happen.
I use Scrivener for organizing my content and doing my writing. I love that application. You can put everything in there. You can grab web pages in there. So I have all these hundreds of folders with articles in progress. Every time I come across a new piece of content, I put it into a topic folder. And sometimes you have to scroll down for pages and pages and pages to get through all the things I have in this document. I don’t even have time to look for the folder where I put that original piece of all of those topic-related, so I start a new one. At a certain point, it becomes, as you said, overwhelming. I’ve gotten to the point where I have to focus on the content that relates to articles or work I’m doing at that moment, and then later I’ll save it. I think I mentioned in that comment that I have one article I started almost three years ago, and I have more than 1,200 links saved to evaluate.
I’m going to have to give up being a completionist and just focus on what I absolutely need. What’s the most important? Otherwise, I’ll never finish this. Got to check this off.
AM:
I mean, honestly, it was 1,256 links. I was like, what? Well, can I say something?
MAA:
And that’s just one article.
AM:
I know. I want to say thank you, first of all. I feel honored that you read my Substack and then actually comment on them considering that’s such a big honor. So thank you so much.
MAA:
I always enjoy them, and I enjoy your honesty.
AM:
Thanks. Sometimes I’m too honest. I’m going to read out a little bit of your comment. You said, “I have a habit of working 20+-hour days”—and I can vouch for that. I’ve been in touch with you, and sometimes I message you thinking, “Oh shit, it’s the time difference,” and you’re still messaging me back. And that’s why we were talking about sleep and whatnot, and we’re not going to go into that. You’re a workaholic, “but it’s mainly because I’m so passionate about this work,” you said, “and it’s difficult to stop or do anything that feels recreational.”
Oh, I totally get it, Margaret. I’m like you. I’m having so much fun. Yeah, I’m earning a lot less money than I was before. Yes, I do feel miserable and sad sometimes that I can’t go and operate and have fun the way I used to in that sense.
But then today, as I was washing up the dishes, and I’m cleaning the kids’ breakfast, I was looking forward to this chat. I was like, “I’m actually having a lot of fun.”
Last night, I had a lot of fun. I had a shit-ton of fun. And you know what? The guy that I recorded last night, Matt Taylor, he took off his headphones at the end and went, “That’s the best podcast I’ve ever done. That was amazing.”
And you know what? I felt so happy. I got this message this morning. Lemme just read it out to you. I mean, this is satisfying. He goes, “Something special happened last night. I feel going forward, if I can help you in any way, please let me know, and let me know when the podcast is up, and I’ll share the shit out of it, obviously, because we are gay brothers now.” He’s straight. He’s straight, and he’s married. But it was lovely. And I’m having fun, and I think you are having fun. And the problem is when you don’t think of it as work and a chore, you can really immerse yourself and become obsessive, almost like an addiction. You need to roll things back. But it’s like, yeah, sorry, you were going to say—
MAA:
Oh, it reminded me of something. Jenna McCarthy, who has a hilarious Substack by the way, told me—and hopefully she’s okay with my sharing this, but she said she has reverse depression, where as soon as she wakes up in the morning, she cannot wait to leap out of bed and start writing and doing this work. I so relate to that.
AM:
And the funny thing is, there are some people on Twitter, they call me a grifter, “What are you doing making money like this? And Substack.” But you know what? Actually, it doesn’t matter because the supporters we have, however few they might be, they value us, and they value and respect the work. And they write to me after that post I did yesterday about being overwhelmed. I got so many emails and message saying, “We really appreciate the work you’re doing. We know how hard it is, and we know what you’re doing, and you’re working like a crazy person. Your work ethic is amazing.” So people do value us. I think people do understand this is a full-time job. And would you not say, Margaret, that we actually work more than a lot of people who work a normal day job for someone else like an employee?
MAA:
Yeah, way, way more. I was telling you this recently, when I had a regular job—and even with my regular jobs, I’m always going above and beyond—but there was an end to the workday. I would go home, my husband and I would have the entire evening and all weekends to work on our own creative projects. And once we started doing client work, that went completely away. There’s no dividing line between work and life. So you work all the time.
Then once I started doing my Substack work, that’s when it’s like, “Oh, I can’t even stop myself because this is so important to me and apparently to other people, and they value this so much.” And I recently wrote for my three-year Substack anniversary, a post called All Our Stars Out: On Finding Cheng.
Cheng is a Confucian term for when purpose meets service to a community who appreciates it. I feel like I have a profound sense of purpose, but not only that, other people are finding value in it as well.
And there’s also the Japanese term or concept of ikigai. All these pieces intersect, and this is what I feel like I was made to do.
AM:
A hundred percent. You were made to do this. It’s great, this mission. So you sent me a draft. Am I able to talk about that? Have you published it yet?
MAA:
Yes, I’ll probably publish it in the morning, so it’ll be published before we release the podcast.
AM:
One aspect of it was you’re talking about black-pilling. Can you talk about that, and what do you mean by all of that stuff?
MAA:
The piece is called Against Defeatism: The Apocaloptimist Manifesto.
Over the past few years, I have come across a number of people within the awake community I call defeatists. They see what’s going on. They know totalitarianism is encroaching, democide is happening, but they piss on all of our efforts to stop it. They say, “Oh, it’s too late. Don’t bother even trying. You should have done this decades ago. You’re wasting your time,” or “You’re doing it the wrong way,” or “You should be covering this topic and not that.”
It really is amazing how audacious some of these people are who come up and say, “You should be covering my pet topic, and if you don’t, you’re controlled opposition.” Some of the things I get are so arrogant, really. And they’re just seeing everything from their own little world. They don’t even care or realize that I have—
AM:
You get this as well?
MAA:
Yeah! And then there are other people who suggest great topics that are in alignment with what I would normally cover. I sometimes write articles based on that. And I appreciate the thoughtful feedback from people who know my work and feel this would be good and this would be of interest to you. And they share things that, “Oh, that’s perfect for”—like someone just shared a TED Talk that was perfect for the article we’re talking about now just as I was in the process of writing it, so I love when those synchronicities happen, and I incorporate it.
But then there are the defeatists who have so much bitterness in them, and I think they have allowed the despair to overtake them.
My whole thinking is I don’t really understand the psychology of people like that because they know what’s happening is terrible and why not—especially if we’ve got nothing to lose at this point. It’s getting darker and darker.
This is the time to pull out all the stops, be courageous, do anything, whatever it is, from whatever your talent is, whatever your passion is, use that to help stop the totalitarian machine, this juggernaut. If enough people do that, we actually do have a chance of stopping it. Why would you just give up and lie down in defeat before the battle has barely begun?
AM:
Yeah, a hundred percent. Amen to that. The thing is, Margaret, say you’re at a party. Do you want to go up to the person who looks miserable and is mouthing off and pissed off at everything? Or do you want to go over to the person who’s laughing and smiling and giggling? Who are you going to be drawn to?
If we are going to wake people up, we need to be happy warriors. We need to be the cool kids, we need to be the really cool kids, not the grumpy, pissed-off kids. That’s basic common sense to me.
I’m really glad you’re getting this shit, too, getting so much of it. Because I’m new to this, really, really new, I’m like, “What the hell is going on?”
I’ll give you an example. This person’s messaged me, and he’s got platform, and he is another person attacking me all the time, “You are aware that receiving forty to sixty liters per minute of oxygen for several hours will cause all the damages and symptoms of COVID, correct? As a surgeon, you should be speaking out on this. You could save lives if you started today.”
I’m like, “What? Because I’m not talking about this, I’ve got a problem? I didn’t even know about this!” Does he even know what surgeons do? The anesthetist is the person giving the airway and the oxygen; us dumb surgeons are at the other end. There’s even a screen up between us. I don’t deliver the oxygen. I know nothing about the oxygen. But it’s like, “As a surgeon, you should know about that.” Then they say, “He never talked about this. He’s controlled opposition.” I’m like, “Really? What?”
And Margaret, I’m not going to say the same thing back at them. I’m not going to say most of these people are controlled opposition and chaos agents. No. And don’t get me wrong, there are those. I actually think most of these people are really burnt out, victims themselves, and just fed up. They’ve been betrayed. They’ve been let down, they’ve been ignored, they’ve been censored, they’ve been canceled, they’ve been punished, and they’re just bitter, they’re resentful, and they’re mistrustful.
I get that. I think they’re good people, but they’re damaged. They’re suffering trauma. So I’m not going to throw it back and say, “They’re evil, they’re bad.” I feel sorry for them, man. If I could, I’d really hug them.
The other problem I think a lot of people have, and I really want your take on this, is a lot of people say this is a war. I think we’re in a spiritual war. So in this spiritual war, we have these spiritual trenches, and you’ve got a front where the enemy is attacking you from. And most people are in their trench, and they’re like, “This is the problem. That’s where the enemy is. And that’s what we need to be doing. And if you are not in this trench with me, oh, I can’t trust you. You must be an enemy, the enemy combatant as well.”
And what I’m trying to tell people is, “No, no, there isn’t just one trench and one front, and there’s the enemy. The enemy’s behind us and there and to the left and up there in the sky and underneath and f*cking everywhere because the enemy is intelligent and devious and attacking us from so many angles. And actually, we need to be talking about all the different fronts they’re attacking. They’re poisoning the land, the sea, the air, the medical industrial complex, the military industrial complex, the wars, the banking system, the fiat, the transgender—we can go on and on. These are all the fronts. And it’s not just one single issue.”
I’ll give you an example. This guy I spoke to, really good guy. He’s a good egg. And I’ll say his name, David Nixson, GP, and he’s doing microscopy. He’s looking at the nanotech, and he was like, “If people aren’t talking about this, I dunno.”
I was like, “Whoa, whoa, stop, stop, David, this is really important. We need to get this out, but there are multiple attacks they’re having on us. We need to talk about all them.”
And credit to him. He went, “No, no, you’re right. Fair play. You’re right. You’re right, Ahmad. They are attacking us on multiple fronts.”
I think people like to become focused on one thing. They become an expert, but the problem is then they end up getting into their own cult that everything is about this, so if you’re not talking about this, you’re part of the problem, and you’re the enemy. And it’s like, “Folks, no bigger picture.” What do you think?
MAA:
Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of these people, it’s almost like an autistic type of mindset where they don’t have the theory of mind to realize you don’t share their exact same knowledge base, and they think you know everything they know and therefore should be doing exactly what they think is most important.
I think you and I both are on this journey and realizing how little we know. Every day, mind-blowing information opens up this new avenue. It’s like, “Wow, how did I go all these years without realizing it?”
I think you even said this in your article, it’s like you find this new paradigm-shattering information, and you have to recalibrate your worldview based on this information. And it’s a thrilling experience, but it can be also exhausting.
I try not to take out every plank at once. I try to do these solid foundations where I research a topic to an in-depth degree, to the point where I feel like I’m confident drawing certain conclusions based on the evidence.
I was just thinking about this earlier. I realized the difference between beliefs and findings. I feel like beliefs are what we are immersed in and propagandized about and social engineering—all these beliefs we have are not our own. They’ve been programmed into us.
As we awaken to that realization, we go through the process of having to extract all these external beliefs that were implanted into us through the indoctrination system. It’s this gradual process of peeling away these layers of artificial beliefs.
But on the other side, when you do the research, when you pursue this particular topic on your own and you feel like you have done an exhaustive job, then what you have is a finding, that’s what I’m calling it, anyway.
And even myself, I’m still weeding out these beliefs. I also went through this process a few years ago where I discarded all of these labels I had attached to myself. That was a completely liberating experience. I talk about it in a piece called The Lattice of Coincidence. It’s my two-year Stackiversary piece.
It’s shedding these labels, and you no longer are controlled by the ingroup and outgroup biases and all these cognitive filters that say you have to believe this because you’re part of this tribe. It’s like, “Nope.”
Trish Wood recently came up with a phrase she calls Truth over Tribe. We are seeking the clearest understanding of reality that we can, and every day we’re getting bombarded with new information. We have to sort the wheat from the chaff and find out what’s trustworthy, what’s not, and formulating this new picture of the world that is in constant flux because we’re constantly learning new things.
But you have to have the humility to recognize that just because you believed something for a long time doesn’t mean it’s true. And it really is a liberating process but for a lot of people, it can be difficult because those are their security blankets, their beliefs, and it’s hard for them to let them go.
AM:
Hundred percent. Most people don’t like change. And that’s a fact. Very few people, maybe 20 percent of people love change, want to change things. My wife is a classic example. She likes steady Eddie thing. Just keep doing the same thing. Same, same. Whereas I’m not. If we could pack up, sell the house, and move to another country and start all over, I’d be up for it. “Let’s do the adventure.”
That would terrify the shit out of my wife, right? She’d be like, “What?!” But that’s the way I am. But most people don’t like disruption. They don’t like change. They’re scared of it. And I get that. It’s unsettling even for someone like me who likes change, where like you said, you find this new piece of information, and just when you think, “Oh my God, I’ve got to the bottom. Okay, I’ve got a grip of things,” the rug gets pulled again from you. It’s like shifting sands. The ground is so uneven, you’re constantly moving around.
I’ll give you an example. I’ll share the screen. Just before I came on with you, I was checking my mail, and one of the wonderful things about Substack is it gives you recommendations of things to read. So I came across this guy on Poisoning the Food and Air: Just When You Thought mRNA Shots Were Bad, Daily Beagle, right?
“Whilst you’ve been distracted with the monster that are the mRNA shots, the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) recently quietly approved the use of what’s known as RNAi (RNA interference) pesticides.”
I’m like, “What?”
“This technology, which makes use of dsRNA (double-stranded RNA), will be sprayed over your food, and has not been safety tested in humans.”
So this has now become part of “I need to read this later on today.” Like, “What the hell is this? What is this new piece of information? What the frack?” This is my life. Every day I come across some new piece of shit. And I’m like, “What?”
One of the things I’ve decided is I’m not pinning my flag to a single mast. I’m not a single-issue person. I’m not saying I know all the answers. I’m saying I’m going to make mistakes, and my opinion will change as the information provided to me changes as well, as I find out new things. And that doesn’t mean, “Oh, look, he’s controlled opposition. He believed this thing yesterday, and today he’s saying that—”
No, it’s because I’m human and I’m willing to say, “I don’t f*cking know. I made a mistake.” And it’s kind of scary, even for me, being overwhelmed by all this new information. And I can just imagine someone like my wife who likes consistency and stability, this would freak the shit out of her. It would cause anxiety and stress, and people don’t like anxiety. It’s painful. So they run away from it. And I guess it’s up to people like you and I to discover things and then package it in a way that we can then give it to the masses and it’s more palatable, and they can swallow it in an easier way. I think that’s what our job is.
MAA:
Yeah, and just hope they are open to it because so many people, like you said, are terrified, and they don’t want to shatter their worldview. So they intentionally look away.
I am disgusted a little bit by the cowardice of it, but I also empathize with their position. I’ve witnessed this as far back going to 9/11. I remember being at a luncheon with some coworkers, and I casually referenced 9/11 being an inside job or something like that, and one woman said, “I just cannot bring myself to believe that because my entire world would implode.” To her credit, she recognized this was herself intentionally protecting herself from this reality that if people hadn’t been propagandized to deny the evidence of their eyes and ears would recognize immediately what had occurred, which fortunately my husband and I did see through it from the beginning.
AM:
But we all have that reaction to something, and we are all on different paths. I’ll give you an example. Across the table from me, I have had people say to me that the earth is flat, and it’s a dome, and it’s a firmament, and there’s water below and there’s water above. And at that point, I’m like, “No, I don’t know if I can accept that because my whole worldview, literally, pardon the pun, will shatter,” like that lady said to you, but they will give me the reasons and the justification and blah, blah, blah and quotes from the Bible. And I’m like, “I’m just not there yet. You know what? I’m sorry. I think the world is round, but do you know what? I’ll give you 1 percent that you might be right. I’ll do that. I will not say I’m 100-percent right, you’re wrong.”
Do you know what? Because at this point in life, frack me. Anything’s possible, and I think I know. And so forget things like no-virus, virus. We’re talking about—another guy was telling me, “Oh, there’s aliens out there, and they’re communicating with us.” And I’m like, “Ohh-kay.” And again, it’s like, they might be right. I mean, a lot of shit has come out that I thought was one thing, and it’s turned out to be completely opposite. Anything’s possible.
So I think that that means humility, but you don’t want to get to the point where you lose all perspective and everything is wishy-washy. I feel like we’ve all got that boundary to the point where we go, “Whoa, I don’t know if I can accept that.” And I think that’s where we have to respect that people are further behind us and not get too angry with them. I think where I get angry with people is where they know the truth but are deliberately not saying anything because they’re cowards or they’re fearful.
MAA:
Exactly. I wrote Letter to a Mainstream Straddler to those people.
Yeah, people who are awake but are living by half-lies. They will tiptoe right up to the boundary of acceptable rhetoric, but they won’t go over to the other side and say something as blatant as Mistakes Were NOT Made or something they cannot accept—or even if they know it, they’re afraid to say openly that what has happened during COVID tyranny was intentionally inflicted for a depopulation agenda and to engineer a totalitarian global outcome.
Those are the people I’m most disappointed in because they know the truth, but they’re afraid to speak it because they’re afraid it’s going to affect their jobs or their popularity, their peer—they’re going to lose friends. That’s when I get disappointed in people, even more so than the Covidians, I think.
AM:
A hundred percent. If you’re in ignorance and you don’t know any better, I forgive you. But if you know and you choose to turn and look the other way and actually enable this kind of stuff, that’s even worse. The people who don’t speak up, that’s another tier of, “Okay,” but the ones who know it’s bad and carry—they continue to deliver the shots or tell people to take the shots even though they will not take the shot. There’s doctors like that now. Doctors and nurses are not taking the shot. They won’t take it. They know it’s bad, but they’re going to—no, no, this is a level that I’m f*cking pissed off with.
MAA:
That’s even worse. I would say, at that point, they become accessories to murder. Because they know what’s occurring, and they are facilitating it.
AM:
A hundred percent. There’s a great guy I had on my podcast called Jason Gardiner, shoutout to him.
I bloody love that man. He was a judge on this ice-skating dancing thing, and he had a career in the media and the TV doing very well, and they told him, his agent said, “You need to get the shots.” And he went, “No, I’m not going to get them.” And they said, “Well, you won’t get any jobs.” And he went, “Well, fine, then.” So he’s not in TV anymore. He’s not got the money, he’s not got the profile. He was shamed and ridiculed by everyone in that industry. And now he’s doing permaculture in Portugal. He’s given up his whole career, everything. He was doing well, and it’s just—boom. People even said, “Where did he go? Oh wow. I used to wonder what happened to him.” Yeah, that’s what happened to him. He stood by his principles and had integrity and had a spine and had a backbone and went, “Frack you. No, I’m not going to do this.”
Do you know what? That’s a real man. That’s a real man, respect to him. And I wish there was more of them.
MAA:
Yeah, I wish more people realized the potential consequences of—you do something, you get this shot to keep your job. They don’t even acknowledge the possibility that they could become permanently disabled and not be able to keep working, which is what happened to far too many people, or they’re going to keel over, which, unfortunately, has happened to millions as well.
I think a big problem is so many people fail the Marshmallow Test. I don’t know if you know the Marshmallow Test, but it was done in the seventies, I believe, and they have these little kids come into this room, and they put a marshmallow in front of them, and they say, “If you wait until I come back, we’ll give you a second marshmallow, so you’ll get two marshmallows, but if you eat it, you won’t get the second one.”
What they found, they followed these children and followed up with them later in life, and they found the children who couldn’t wait and didn’t have impulse control and ate that marshmallow ended up getting into trouble in terms of crime or not really succeeding in life. They don’t have the ability to imagine into the future and make decisions in the present that will benefit them in that future.
There’s one thing, living in the moment, that’s a good thing in terms of mental wellness. But if you can’t project the possible outcome in the future from your current decision, you’re going to make bad decisions, and you’re going to suffer for them.
I think that’s what happened with a lot of these people who, even if they instinctively knew this was an experimental product, there’s no telling what’s going to happen to them once they get it injected into them, they thought, “Well, I have to do it to keep my job or to go to the bar,” whatever ridiculous—travel, all these things that were withheld from the people who said no. So they don’t even think about the potential consequences to their health, their life, their family, and they make this decision because they were coerced to do it and then often regret it for the rest of whatever life they have left.
AM:
I never thought of it like that. It’s a really good take. There’s a medical thing that’s similar that I want to talk about, but this whole thing about delayed gratification is really important. This impulse control. Too much of society and culture is now, “Me, me, me. Now, now, now.” There’s no such thing as, “Wait. Have patience. Work for it.”
For example, with the food industry, I really like the Slow Food movement. Cook your food, bake your own bread, take your time. Don’t rush things, don’t go for the—convenience food is not convenient for your health. Don’t go for your microwave-processed food, bing, sixty seconds, whatever, and eat that garbage. Put some love into it. And so that’s like with food or with anything, but again, with diet, fasting.
I got into fasting because of my wife, and that’s the ultimate in delayed gratification. Gin Stephens has written a book called Delay, Don’t Deny. So you delay, you’re hungry. Enjoy that moment of hungriness and think, “It’s okay, because later on, I’m going to feast, and it’s going to be magnificent. I’m not denying myself that cookie or that muffin. I’m just delaying that gratification.”
The funny thing is, when you fast—so I fast twenty hours a day—and when you fast, of course, I’m hungry a little bit here and there. But then after a while—five, ten minutes later, the hunger pang goes away. Then you do another two hours, and then it comes back. Then when you eat, you savor the moment, you enjoy it. I have chocolate, I have cookies. But you know what? From a biological point of view, it really is amazing. It keeps your insulin levels down, stops insulin resistance, stops obesity. It sharpens your mind. It keeps you youthful. It reverses aging.
MAA:
Autophagy.
AM:
Autophagy. It’s so, so good. This whole idea, we need to delay the gratification, folks, but you’re on your phone, the dopamine hits the reels. People are—we need to change this cultural thing that’s happened to us.
MAA:
Yes. And one other point. I do intermittent fasting as well, and what you find is when you combine that with a low-carb or keto diet, after just a week or two of doing this, you go into ketosis, and you aren’t even hungry the rest of the time. I’m perfectly satisfied with one meal a day. When I get up, I have my tea for maybe six to eight hours before I have a meal, and then I have my meal, and then I’m full for the rest of the day.
AM:
Nice. Listen, when you said you were going to make tea and you’re running a few minutes late, I had an extra coffee that I don’t normally have. I normally have one or two shots. This was my third. So I really need to wee, so we are going to break. When we get back, can you talk about some of your pieces, please, that you really like and that I would love the listeners—and you can even open them up and do a screen-share if you want. By the way, at the bottom there’s a share page, but the ones I was thinking of were Mistakes Were NOT Made. I’d really like you to read some of that and explain the reason why you wrote that. The kapos letter. That was a really good one. Any other ones that you might think—is that okay while I quickly shoot off? Is that right?
MAA:
Oh, sure.
AM:
Yeah. So we’re going to talk about Mistakes Were NOT Made. By the way, I love your hat. It’s very cool. It’s got Mistakes Were NOT Made on it. Is that your merch?
MAA:
Yep.
AM:
Where can people find that?
MAA:
I have a Redbubble store. At the end of most of my posts, I have a section called Spread the Words, and there’s pictures of some of the merch. In the most recent one, maybe it was my last piece with Meredith, I actually shared a picture of one of my readers, KatWarrior and her son both wearing a Mistakes Were NOT Made shirt.
I love when readers share that with me, so I’m starting to use their pictures whenever they send stuff.
AM:
Amazing.
MAA:
Some of my posts are super-long, so you might want to jump to the end of the page and then move up. I’ve got different variations of Mistakes Were NOT Made. Some of them have different stanzas, and you can explore and see what resonates with you.
AM:
Awesome. I’m going to get all your links and put them in the show notes and my own Substack and the website so people will be able to find all this. I dunno about the way you’ve set up your merch store. Mine, it’s with Printful. My brother-in-law helped me set it up, and it was mainly to help people wear things that will be able to project messages and make people think like my cap [uncaptured] or I Will Not Comply or I Do Not Consent. It’s a way of saying things without actually saying it.
MAA:
Exactly. I consider them conversation-starters.
AM:
Exactly. I don’t get very much money from it, barely anything. But that wasn’t the point. The point was it’s just another way of people expressing themselves and fighting back.
Let’s talk about Mistakes Were NOT Made. What’s behind all that?
MAA:
Yeah, let me go to that. This was a poem I published on January 1, 2023. As I explain in the introduction, it was inspired by an exchange with Mike Yeadon.
We were both starting to notice the rhetoric of the so-called leaders of the medical freedom movement were starting to adopt the language of the perpetrators. I was anticipating—at some point, you know the reality is going to push through the lies and the propaganda, and the leaders are going to start saying, “Mistakes were made.” So I wanted to get ahead of the curve and push back against that before we started getting the truckload of excuse-making and all the bullshit that was coming out and has come out since I published this piece. As soon as people saw the concept “Mistakes Were NOT Made,” pretty much everyone immediately knew what that meant. And it is—
AM:
Can I ask you a favor?
MAA:
Inverting the truth.
AM:
Yeah, they were inverting the truth. Can you please read it out for me? That’d be an honor.
MAA:
Okay. Absolutely.
Mistakes Were NOT Made:
An Anthem for Justice
by Margaret Anna Alice
The Armenian Genocide was not a mistake.
Holodomor was not a mistake.
The Final Solution was not a mistake.
The Great Leap Forward was not a mistake.
The Killing Fields were not a mistake.
Name your genocide—it was not a mistake.
That includes the Great Democide of the 2020s.
To imply otherwise is to give Them the out they are seeking.
It was not botched.
It was not bungled.
It was not a blunder.
It was not incompetence.
It was not lack of knowledge.
It was not spontaneous mass hysteria.
The planning occurred in plain sight.
The planning is still occurring in plain sight.
The philanthropaths bought The $cience™.
The modelers projected the lies.
The testers concocted the crisis.
The NGOs leased the academics.
The $cientists fabricated the findings.
The mouthpieces spewed the talking points.
The organizations declared the emergency.
The governments erected the walls.
The departments rewrote the rules.
The governors quashed the rights.
The politicians passed the laws.
The bankers installed the control grid.
The stooges laundered the money.
The DoD placed the orders.
The corporations fulfilled the contracts.
The regulators approved the solution.
The laws shielded the contractors.
The agencies ignored the signals.
The behemoths consolidated the media.
The psychologists crafted the messaging.
The propagandists chanted the slogans.
The fact-chokers smeared the dissidents.
The censors silenced the questioners.
The jackboots stomped the dissenters.
The tyrants summoned.
The puppeteers jerked.
The puppets danced.
The colluders implemented.
The doctors ordered.
The hospitals administered.
The menticiders scripted.
The bamboozled bleated.
The totalitarianized bullied.
The Covidians tattled.
The parents surrendered.
The good citizens believed … and forgot.
This was calculated.
This was formulated.
This was focus-grouped.
This was articulated.
This was manufactured.
This was falsified.
This was coerced.
This was inflicted.
This was denied.
We were terrorized.
We were isolated.
We were gaslit.
We were dehumanized.
We were wounded.
We were killed.
Don’t let Them get away with it.
Don’t let Them get away with it.
Don’t let Them get away with it.
AM:
Wow, I got goosebumps now. How does it feel reading that?
MAA:
I haven’t read it for a while. It felt powerful. A lot of people felt like this articulated what they had observed but no one had been saying, at least all in one place. When I wrote this, like many of my pieces, the first lines just come to me. I feel like I’m dictating from a muse, and I’m just channeling this. So it isn’t necessarily all me, but all of these things start flooding out. I had written this, as I said, January, well, I published it January 1, 2023—but this was the culmination of almost three years’ worth of research. It was me taking all of the different disparate pieces of information and weaving them into an overall view, as clear a picture as I could present of the reality I had been bearing witness to in my writing and at my Substack and all of these different intersecting colluders, and everybody had to play a role in this. All of these people and groups I name are culpable, and it could not have happened without all of their cooperation.
That’s not a conspiracy theory. That is a conspiracy.
One of the things I do in this poem and all my other work, as I said before, is to link to supporting evidence. So if people hear this, and they’re skeptical about it, well click the link and research it for yourself. These are some of the pieces that made me come to this decision. And I think at this point, it’s undeniable.
AM:
Well, Margaret.
MAA:
Even the mainstream media is starting to have to admit it in limited hangouts.
AM:
Yeah, sorry for interrupting. I was going to say I am a creature of efficiency. I love efficiency. I hate inefficiency. It’s one of my problems because I expect that from other people. As a consultant, I expected that from the staff around me and the juniors. One of the things I had to learn was the bar that I set myself not only was unrealistic with myself but was unrealistic with those around me. However, being that creature of efficiency—can I just say this poem is extremely efficient? It could not be any more efficient in what you’re trying to say. There is not one superfluous line. Every line is packed with meaning.
MAA:
Thank you.
AM:
And there is nothing that’s not true. There’s no exaggeration. You have distilled the truth into its purest essence and form with every line, every bloody line.
When I read this and I hear this, I think it’s a goddamn masterpiece. And I’m telling you right now, a year from now, people will look back and go, “Yeah, this was it.” And all these people who argue, “It’s this, and it’s that.”
No, you know what? It’s there. Right there. You’ve just spelled it all out. You don’t need to go very far to look for the answers and figure out what happened. It’s there. Right there. You wrote it. Well-done, you.
MAA:
Thank you, thank you. That’s exactly what I was aiming for.
AM:
Well, you did it. Can I ask you to do another thing? That was really powerful. My audience is getting really quite big now, and there might be some people who don’t know about you. I want everyone to know about you. You got me to read out letter to kapos. Can you please read that out? I want to hear it from you as well. That was another really powerful moving piece that you wrote.
MAA:
Thank you. And I love your reading of it. You captured it so beautifully.
AM:
Oh, well, I think it was written for me, actually.
MAA:
I felt like it. It was the first one I thought of for you when we talked about collaborating, and when you chose that, I knew it was right.
AM:
Oh, by the way, you still need to do one for my kids. The kids who were—
MAA:
I was going to ask about that. Yeah, we need to do that.
AM:
No, I really want you to do it still. So my daughter, the middle one, I remember she came home from school. She was only about six. She’s like, “Daddy, these teachers, they’re so silly. They’re so stupid. They wear these masks, and there’s holes in the top and gaps on the side. I don’t know why they do it.”
And I think doing a poem, talking about what they did to our kids, forcing them to wear masks, forcing them to social-distance, to have bubbles in classrooms, you know, the teachers being masked and the vaccine. I think if you could have that and get my daughter to read it out, that would be so powerful.
MAA:
Right, yeah.
AM:
Yeah. Just a thought. I thought about writing something myself. I think you’re just, you’re so far ahead of me when it comes to writing. I don’t even want to—I’m now a podcaster.
MAA:
Well, you started riffing something out. “You forced us to wear masks,” and what you were saying just spontaneously I thought was great. Maybe we could figure out some way of collaborating with your daughter, too, and get her input, who knows.
AM:
Yeah, let’s do that. Anyway, let’s read this one out. And can you give the basis, what is the kapos, what is that, and what is this all about? Actually, before you talk about that, what made you write this?
MAA:
Okay, so Eulogy for the COVID Kapos.
Kapos, for those people who don’t know, are the—in the concentration camps in Nazi Germany, there were prisoners who were appointed to oversee the other prisoners. They were delegated certain responsibilities and given certain perks and benefits for helping the guards enforce the prison rules. The kapos were typically drawn from the criminal classes, and they were the people without conscience, really. They tended to be even more brutal than the guards themselves. And they got drunk on their power. It’s like the Karens or the petty tyrants. When you look at, say, people like Matt Hancock or all these politicians who are psychopaths, they even knew exactly what was occurring.
I mentioned Matt Hancock. We had those WhatsApp message releases where he’s talking about, “When do we deploy the next variant?” In other words, the propaganda campaign against the public. And “we want to scare the pants off of them.”
He knew exactly what he was doing in terms of behavioral engineering, terrifying and terrorizing the public so they could obtain consensus and get people to comply with things people would otherwise never have complied with.
Eulogy for the COVID Kapos I wrote—it was after we started getting the pleas for amnesty, the people who were involved in enforcing the tyranny.
Once things started softening a bit in terms of the totalitarianism and COVID was downplayed, then they were having to face the consequences of what they had done. And they did not want to face those consequences. They still do not want to face those consequences. So I am holding them accountable and calling them out for their dictatorial and vicious behavior.
AM:
God bless you.
MAA:
Should I go ahead and start reading now?
AM:
I would love that.
MAA:
Eulogy for the COVID Kapos
by Margaret Anna Alice
You mocked us.
You blocked us.
You wished for our deaths.
You shamed us.
You blamed us.
You called for our jailing.
You banned us.
You canned us.
You cut off our funds.
You believed.
You decreed.
You complied.
You denied.
You feared.
You sneered.
You cowered.
You lied.
You followed the leader.
You chanted the slogans.
You balked at our questions.
You scoffed at our research.
You thought you were smarter.
You felt you were safer.
You knew you were holier.
You said you were better.
Now you’re starting to wonder.
Now you’re starting to doubt.
Now you’re starting to remember.
Now you’re regretting.
You can’t undo what you’ve done to yourself.
You can’t undo what you’ve done to your loved ones.
You can’t undo what you’ve done to us.
You can’t undo what you’ve done to the world.
And now you want a mulligan.
Now you want to forget.
Now you want us to forget.
Even though it’s still happening.
Even though we’re still suffering.
Even though they’re still murdering.
It will never end without acknowledgment.
It will never end without accountability.
It will never end without remorse.
It will never end without justice.
So make your apologies,
and we may listen.
Make your amends,
and we may forgive.
Make your peace,
and we may accept.
Or not.
Your sincerity.
Your willingness to take responsibility.
Your ability to name your wrongs.
Your actions to rectify what’s been done—
what they’ve done,
what you’ve done,
what they’re trying to do.
How do you know you won’t fall for the next one?
How do you know you won’t line up for more?
How do you know you won’t crumble again?
Who were you then?
Who are you now?
Who will you become?
Why should we trust you?
Can you see it?
Can you say it?
Can you feel it?
Will you stop it?
AM:
Very powerful, Margaret. Thank you. Thank you. Nailed it again.
MAA:
I realized while I was reading it, I kind of forgot—I started talking about the Matt Hancock types who were the politicians, who knew what they were doing. This is actually more for the Covidians who bought the lie and became the petty tyrants and enforced the tyranny because they were drunk on their power.
AM:
I know someone who wasn’t quite that—he was a colleague, orthopedic consultant friend. And when I was telling him these shots aren’t what we think they are, he was like, “What’s wrong with you? Just take them for God’s sake. It’s just a jab. It’s just another vaccine. You can do your job and blah, blah, blah.”
And I said to him, “You’ve had COVID, why do you need it?”
He was like, “Well, exactly. I had it, and it was really bad and I don’t want it again.”
I was like, “But you’re immune now.”
And he didn’t get it. He was like, “Oh, I think you should just have it.”
And he took it and had his booster as well. He went, “Oh, my wife is like you, a crazy conspiracy theorist. She hasn’t had any.”
And then I went out for dinner with him for the first time in years, and he was like, “What’s happened to you? You’ve left the hospital, blah, blah. There’s rumors.”
I filled him in, and he said, “Yeah, well, I’m not having any more of these anyway. I only took it because I had to. If I didn’t do it, then I wouldn’t have a job, I wouldn’t be able to pay the mortgage. So I had to do it, but I’m not going to have any more.”
And then I said to him, “But if they come again with the mandates and say you have to have it, what’s changed? You say you’re not going to have any more, but you capitulated last time. What’s different that this time you won’t still roll over and take it?”
And this guy who, six-two, towers over me, physically towers over me, but in every other respect, at that moment in time, he was like a tiny ant, and I was not physically towering over him, but spiritually, logically, intellectually, philosophically, I was towering over him, and he couldn’t look me in the eye. And he didn’t have anything to say.
And I went, “So there you go. You can say you won’t have it again. You know and I know you will just roll over.”
And that’s the problem. And it fits in with this poem in some respect. Whaddya gonna do next time? Whaddya gonna to do?
I think the reason why your poetry is so powerful and your writing is so powerful is you really do get the mirror and reflect it back at these people and say, “Look at your ugly self. This is who you are.”
MAA:
Exactly.
AM:
I think some people might look at it and go, “Oh shit, I need to do something about this.”
Some people will just ignore it and run away and name-call you because you’re exposing them for who they are.
Some people will look at your writing and go, “I’m with you, Margaret, I’ve always been with you, and I love you for doing this.”
It’s going to be lots of different reactions.
MAA:
That made me think of the piece that inspired me to start my letter series, which is Letter to a Covidian: A Time-Travel Experiment.
So from August 2021. I was addressing the Covidians and trying to understand it from their perspective. And I did exactly what you said, but CJ Hopkins uses this analogy a lot where you’re holding up a mirror and showing them their behavior.
The time travel experiment is taking them out of the present moment and the psychological state of terror they have been in because of the propaganda and encouraging them to remember back to 2019 and think about what that person from 2019 would think about how you’re behaving right now, how you are acting like hugging someone is a crime, showing your face is a threat to society. And what would that person you were—at the time it was two years ago—think about who you’ve become now? And just trying to help them get out of their current mindset and see how preposterous and hateful their behavior had become.
AM:
A hundred percent. Do you know what? I think one of the reasons why my colleagues in the medical profession didn’t like me and forced me out was I reflected to them what actually a proper doctor should be like and how wrong they were and how shameful their conduct has been, how they trampled over medical ethics. I was this constant reminder of all that they’ve done wrong. And instead of having humility and saying, “We f*cked up, we made a big mistake,” and having integrity and duty of candor and saying, “Yep, hands up. We messed up big-time here.” Right?
It’s easier to double down and go, “You’re a stupid conspiracy theorist and a quack, and you don’t belong in this hospital. You don’t belong in this profession. We need to investigate you and punish you, and we need to carry on pretending that you know what, we are the right ones. And we’re gonna keep saying it until we believe it, and we’re gonna delude ourselves because living that lie is so much more palatable than coming to the realization and truth that we f*cking killed people and we lied to people, we harmed people, we did everything exactly the opposite of what a doctor should be doing, and we actually probably can’t live with ourselves anymore, and we’ll hang our heads in shame and guilt. No, that’s too painful. So f*ck it. We’re going to screw Ahmad Malik and make him look to be an idiot, and we’re going to carry on pretending how great we are and pat ourselves on the back and say, ‘Yeah, good job. Look how great we are.’ Yeah, yeah, yeah.’” I think that’s what it’s all about.
MAA:
Your example convicted them and showed them that there was someone with the courage to stand up to the nonsense and not participate in it, and certainly not inflict harm on their patients for their own self-preservation and careers and reputations.
That made me think of—I don’t know if you’ve seen this piece, Are You a Good German or a Badass German?
AM:
This rings a bell. I think I might have gone through this. No, I think I have read this. I have read this one, by the way. It’s the Badass German, that reminds me.
MAA:
You are a badass.
The Good Germans believe their government, they trust what they’re being told, and they go along with it. And they participate in the persecution, whereas the Badass Germans question and they fail—basically, I said we are at this convergence of the Milgram Obedience Experiment, the Stanford Prison Experiment, the Asch Conformity Test.
AM:
Can you do me a favor? Can you talk about each of these studies very quickly? Because some people might not know what you’re talking about. I know, but I don’t know the last one. The first two I do know. But can you quickly explain those ones? Sorry, it’s the Stanford Prison one I am not sure about, but if you can quickly go through the three of them.
MAA:
Okay. The Stanley Milgram Obedience Experiment is quite famous.
Now there’s a little bit of a rabbit-hole that is—some people are saying the results he presented weren’t necessarily accurate, that he maybe crafted them to portray his particular, the outcome he was trying to convey. But even if the experiment itself was manipulated—which I haven’t had a chance to delve into that, so I don’t know for sure if it was—the principle that he documented held true and was played out during COVID and every other totalitarian regime, really. He was trying to understand why the German citizens went along with the propaganda and why they agreed to turn in their neighbors and that sort of thing.
In the official version of the Milgram Obedience Experiment, you have these volunteers who sign up to participate in what they think is a learning experiment, and they’re told there’s a person in the other room and they’re testing their memory. If the person gives a wrong answer, they need to press a button to deliver a little shock. Each time, the person gets a wrong answer, the level of the shock increases, and at a certain point, the other person in the room they can only hear but not see—that person, of course, is in on this experiment—he starts saying he has “a heart problem, please stop. You’re putting me at risk.”
A certain percentage, a large percentage, of the participants proceeded with delivering the higher and higher shocks, even though they were putting the subject’s health at risk, because a person in a white coat was telling them to do it.
You see that when you have a figure in authority—whether it be a scientist, a doctor, a politician, a leader of whatever sort—people are more likely to do whatever they’re told if this “expert” tells them to do it, even if it goes against their own conscience.
There was only a small number of people who resisted and said, “I’m not doing this. I’m not going through with this anymore.”
And there’s another—I talk about this in another piece called Letter to a Colluder, but there’s a book called Ordinary Men that talks about the Józefów massacre in Poland and the Nazi troops who participated in shooting these prisoners.
The person in command of this battalion gave the soldiers the opportunity to not participate in this massacre because he actually was very sick of—he himself threw up because he was told he was going to have to massacre these people, he was going to have to have his soldiers do this. So he gave them the opportunity to opt out.
Only 12 out of 500 men opted out. The others did it because of peer pressure or because they didn’t want to be seen as not being strong, all kinds of reasons that are explored in the book. And I talk a bit about those reasons in Letter to a Colluder, but this is the tiny percentage of people who have moral courage.
And that’s what we see in terms of the people who are speaking up now. So many people, the majority of the people, it’s easier just to give in, even if they don’t want to do it, it’s like, “Oh, f*ck it”—or “frack it,” sorry—“even though I don’t want to do this, I’m going to go along because it’s easier than standing up and saying something because then you put your, you make a target of yourself.”
AM:
A hundred percent. Have you seen that picture where the meme, where all these people are doing the Heil Hitler sign and this one guy who’s not? Yes, that’s me amongst all the doctors.
MAA:
Yeah, you were in a particularly compliant and colluding a group of people, the doctors. Out of all the people who should have stood up, they should have known what was going on, and they should have—and even a lot of them did know, but they didn’t have the courage to say anything, and that’s even worse. I can’t remember that guy’s name, but I think I did talk about him in one of my articles, I just can’t remember which one.
But the Stanford Prison Experiment, that was where they took two groups of people and assigned the role of prisoner to some and guard to the other.
The people really got into these roles. There’s a lot of documentary footage of this, and you see the guards got sadistic, and the prisoners were really suffering. They actually had to end the experiment early because it was getting so out of control. It’s like once you put people into these psychological roles, they conform to it, and rather quickly, it’s quite surprising.
They really were losing their bearings in terms of their conscience and almost forgetting this was an experiment and really getting into the power dynamics of this.
You see that when society imposes these artificial roles on people, they put the mask on literally and figuratively and fall into these roles. They’ve had these embedded scripts through social engineering, through propaganda, so they really just need these triggers.
It’s almost like hypnosis in a way. It’s like a snap. And then they fall into it, but it’s really hard to snap them out of it, unfortunately.
AM:
It’s kind scary. It’s really scary. What happens to these people? You don’t think they’re human anymore. They’re like crazy, Zombie, Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Like who the hell are you guys? You guys are like freaks.
MAA:
Yep. And then there’s the Asch Conformity Test.
I do encourage you to watch this video on your own later. It’s only a couple minutes long, but this one’s especially fascinating because everybody in this experiment is in on it. So they’re insiders. And there’s one person who’s brought in, and he believes everybody else is here for the same test.
Once again, they tell them it’s about something else, but it’s really about gauging their conformity. The subject, they’re shown these lines and they’re asked to say which is the longer line or the shorter line, I can’t remember which. They go down the line, all these people before him say the wrong one. They’re all looking at these sets of lines, and they’re saying, this line is shorter when it’s actually longer.
So the subject is having this cognitive dissonance of what he’s seeing with his own eyes versus what everybody else is seeing. And he—depending on the subject, but most people will go ahead and say what everybody else is saying, even though it goes against their own senses and their inner judgment.
But, and this is the interesting part, when they bring in another subject who sees and says he sees the same thing—the correct answer to the line question—that emboldens the original subject to then say, “Yes, this is the truth. This is what I see.”
And this is the role I feel you and I are playing. Because even though it’s almost impossible to reach the people who are asleep and truly ensconced in the narrative until they’re ready to wake up, the people like us who are sitting on the sidelines saying, “Wait, you can’t really be believing that, right? I mean, that’s crazy.” But everybody is saying it, but then we come, and we say, “No, that is bullshit. This is the truth.”
They’re like, “Oh, thank God.” And then they feel empowered to speak out as well.
And this is how our numbers grow because everybody has these intuitions and these instincts, but so many people have had those instincts suppressed and drummed out of them, and they are so ensconced in this groupthink that a lot of them are completely detached from that intuition, unfortunately.
AM:
Of the many brilliant things you’ve said, this is one of the biggest things. You’ve nailed it. I wrote a Substack saying My Target Audience—
MAA:
Yeah, I remember that. I really liked that piece.
AM:
Thanks. And it’s because someone had said, “Oh, you need to tone it down and don’t talk about COVID so much and talk about some other things so you can become more mainstream and get a big—”
I was like, “You really don’t get the purpose of my podcast.”
You’ve just nailed it. The purpose was to embolden us—all those people, the way you started off right at the beginning, right at the beginning of this podcast, how you’re saying everyone was being censored, comments were being taken off, we were being compartmentalized, isolated, made to feel like we were alone. Literally, I at one point felt the whole world had been taken over by the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and no one else felt like me. I was not on social media, I was not watching news. I didn’t know anyone at all who thought like me, and I thought I was a freak.
So the whole point of my podcast is to embolden every one of those people like me and go, “Yeah, dammit, I knew I was right. Goddammit!” It put the fire in their belly and the courage in them to go, “That’s a load of garbage” in the workplace. And everyone’s like, “Oh, yeah, yeah.” They’ll now say, “That’s a lot of rubbish.” And if anybody goes, “Really?” And they’re like, “Yeah, go check out this podcast or read this. Do you know about this data? Do you know what this scientist said? Do you know what this doctor? You’re falling for it.”
I want to give that courage to people. And then the people who are wavering and are not that sure, that was my second target audience.
MAA:
I call them swing thinkers.
AM:
Swing thinkers. The ones that all go, “Do you know what? I knew something wasn’t right? Aww, dammit.”
That’s even more powerful because now they’ll get angry, “I got duped. Those f*ckers duped me. Never going to trust them again.”
So that might be 60, 70 percent of the population. Now, the 34 percent who are the diehard Covidians, can’t-wait-for-their-next-f*cking-nineteenth-booster, I don’t give a shit about them. I don’t give a shit. But my target audience is the core to embolden them.
And that is what you’re doing. And when you read those pieces and those poems, I can tell you right now, everyone listening to this from New Zealand, Australia, America, Finland, Austria, Canada, Britain, Manchester, LA, Texas, wherever, because I can see it on my Instagram—not Instagram, on my Spotify account. This podcast has been listened to in over 150 countries. I mean, we’re talking about a lot of places. People like us are going, “Damn right, Margaret, I bloody love you.” So thank you for what you do.
So carry on with this article, this piece.
MAA:
I do want to quickly say the point you made about isolation—that was completely intentional. I believe Jacques Ellul talks about this in his brilliant and essential book Propaganda, which I think is from 1962 [1965], somewhere around there, documents with such clarity what we experienced during COVID.
One of the things propagandists do is make you feel like you’re alone and nobody else is seeing it this way, so it’s too risky to speak out—or you must be wrong. They make you question your own beliefs and thoughts and reason. That is completely intentional. That’s how they engineer consensus.
It’s a complete illusion, but it eventually becomes true because they inculcate the populace into these lies. And the more people are tricked into thinking, “Well, I must be wrong because nobody else thinks what I’m thinking.” And then they buy into it, and then they double-down. Anyway, that’s a whole ’nother matter.
But I thought your point about feeling isolated means the propaganda was working. One of the things during COVID that was so insidious is they intentionally cut off communications, broke families, didn’t want you meeting in person. Even when you met in person, your expressions were shielded by a mask. All of that was about breaking those bonds and those connections so you would feel alone and you would feel like, “Oh, can I even say something around this person because I don’t know if I can trust them?”
This is also a pattern in communist and socialist and totalitarian societies in general—you want to shatter those bonds that keep people grounded and give people a sense of perspective. It is particularly diabolical, especially when you think about all the people who were separated from their loved ones when they were dying and when they were being hospicided by hospital protocols like remdesivir and midazolam, all the people in the senior centers. That starts even angering me even more, and it’s so heartbreaking. But all of that was intentional. Mistakes Were NOT Made.
AM:
No, no, no, no, they were not. And you know what I love? I love the fact that you’ve got this passion, and you have got anger, but you channel it. You channel it into something positive and constructive and creative and quite beautiful, actually.
I want people to feel things. I want people to have a little bit of anger. The opposite is this passivity and docile, literally bleating like sheep. No, guys, I don’t want you angry in this crazy ranting, uncontrolled-being-ridiculous, but feel something, for God’s sake. I feel like shaking people, the lights are on, but no one’s at home. Goddammit, feel something.
Last night, this guy Matt Taylor, he sweared more than me. The podcast was—you’re going to love this, Margaret. The podcast was two-and-a-half, three hours of swearing with the occasional words. That is the podcast. So just a warning out there, if anybody doesn’t like swear words, do not listen to the podcast with Matt Taylor.
One of the things Matt Taylor was saying was, “Where were all the men? Where were all the British football hooligans,”—and there’s a lot of them, these bald guys tattooed up, and “Oh yeah, yeah. F*cking get those guys and get the Chelsea guys or the Manchester,” and they’re drinking alcohol and having these fights in the streets. You know, these big tough men. “Where the f*ck were you when the government came and took your rights and your freedoms and your ability to travel and work and forced experimental jabs on your children and yourself, where the f*ck were you then to stand up and fight, these big tough men? Where were you? When it really mattered, where the f*ck were you?”
MAA:
They were watching their football games.
AM:
That was what Matt was saying. Where was that anger? And this is what I mean. People need to feel things again. Yeah, it’s crazy. It’s crazy what’s happening to people.
Anyway, carry on. Good German, Bad German business and whatever.
MAA:
The next experiment I talked about was the elevator experiment, which is very much like the Asch Conformity experiment, but all the other participants are in on it, and they’re all facing the wrong way.
The target comes in and sees everybody else facing the wrong way. You see almost all of them turn around, even though it doesn’t make any sense to them. So you see how easily—and we have a herd mentality built into us as a natural protective measure, so when the herd starts to run, it makes sense to run, too, because they see some danger that you may not see.
Unfortunately, the mind manipulators and the people who execute or practice mass control using Edward Bernays’s social engineering and propagandizing techniques know they can create an artificial terror and point people in whatever direction they create, and you have the Problem Reaction Solution.
So they create the problem and make everybody suffer and say, “Oh, well, here’s this salvific vaccine that’s going to make all this suffering we’ve inflicted”—but of course they don’t say that—“go away. And anybody who doesn’t accept it is the enemy, and you can blame them.”
And, of course, the magician is behind the scenes orchestrating everything, but get mad at the people who actually have courage and are exposing the corruption. And the herd believes them, at least that 30 or so percent—
AM:
Especially when it’s the holy vaccine, especially when it’s the holy vaccine, all have to worship.
MAA:
Yes, absolutely. It is absolutely a religion. And it was complete faith because it was not based on any scientific evidence, and yet they had to “Trust the Science.” It was draped in the garb of “official science”—holy science which cannot be questioned, and holy doctors, the priests who administer it. People have that authority bias built in, especially if they’ve been watching television all their lives and they’ve been engineered to have this obedient mentality.
AM:
Do you know why I keep saying to people, “Don’t have anyone on the pedestal. No one. Don’t have anyone on the pedestal—not a doctor, not your celebrity, not your famous influencer. Not even your most famous likable podcaster. No! Don’t have anyone on the pedestal. Don’t have any heroes. Don’t look for saviors. Don’t look for leaders. Just look in the mirror. And that is the hero and the leader within. No one is coming to save you except yourself. Have faith in God, and get on with it.” That’s it. Simple as!
I dunno how often you reach out to your supporters, but I like to ring and chat with them just because people sometimes send me really beautiful emails, and I’m like, “What’s your number? Let’s have a chat.”
It keeps me connected to people. And someone was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe it’s you. You’ve actually rung me. Oh my God, you’re my hero.”
I went, “Well, okay, whoa, whoa, stop there right now.”
And then another one was like, “Oh my God, you don’t understand. You’re on this pedestal.”
I was like, “Well, right. That’s the worst thing you could say to me. Push me off the pedestal right now.”
And she went, “Okay, I’ve pushed you off.”
Because it’s true. Like, no!
MAA:
I don’t have this pulled up, but I just published a piece recently about that, and it’s Dialogue with Mike Yeadon About Early Treatment.
As you know, as we’ve already discussed, I adore Mike and I consider him one of my greatest friends. He had been making some statements about early treatment that I didn’t necessarily agree with. As I said, I adore him, I love him. We agree on a lot of things, but that doesn’t mean we always agree, and that’s alright. So I said we need to defend ourselves against authority bias, and we need to not put people on pedestals like you’re saying. Just because we love and respect someone doesn’t mean just because they say and believe something themselves that we should automatically believe it. I apply the same rigorous standard I apply to what anybody says regardless of where they’re coming from and how much I agree with them on other things.
AM:
The other thing as well is when you have someone on a pedestal, it’s really weird. I’m going to write a Substack on this actually, so don’t nick this from me. That was just a joke. When you have someone who you put up on a pedestal, like a hero, and you don’t really know them, you think you know them, it’s like someone you’ve fallen in love with for the first time when you’re a teenager, you’ve got this crush. And the love you think you have isn’t actually justified. It’s based on your own ideas, not actually the values of that person and how they’re loving you and their characteristics. You’re projecting this image and idea of what this person is like, and you’re in love with that idea, not the reality.
Then when you get to know the person more and better, the reality is no matter how good they are, they will fall short because you were projecting this unrealistic idea of them that was never them. So it’s not their fault. It’s not their fault that they aren’t who you thought they were. You were thinking the wrong things, and you were making it up in your head what they were like. So even when this person doesn’t do anything wrong, when you understand them or get to know them, your faith in them or love of them can be dashed because they didn’t meet your mark, they didn’t meet your expectations when the expectations were unrealistic in the first place and based on nothing but your own projections.
I dunno if that makes sense, what I’ve just said. What I’m trying to say is don’t have these heroes and look up to these people because they’re famous or their big following. They’re just human beings, man. They fart, they pick their nose, they have flaws. They’re just human, right? Only when you get to know someone properly, really get to know them, the ins and outs, then you base your love and admiration and respect for them. Because I’m not saying you shouldn’t love people and respect people. Hundred percent, you should. But it should be based on real things like tangible—who they are, not your idea of them. I think I should write about that.
MAA:
You should, yeah.
AM:
Anyway, right. What’s next? Are You a Good German? What were you saying? Yeah, tell me.
MAA:
I don’t need to go through all of this, but I have a twenty-question survey people who complied are going to find out they were Good Germans. And for those who don’t know the phrase “the Good Germans,” it’s just as I said earlier, the citizens who trust their government, believe the propaganda, fear what they told you to fear—or are you a Badass German who saw through lies and called it out?
AM:
I was just following orders.
MAA:
Exactly.
AM:
So what’s the Badass German? Exercise logic, reason, integrity. Carry on, you carry on from there.
MAA:
The people who held onto their senses when the propagandists were doing everything to drum it out of them and who spoke up and said they saw the short line when everyone else was saying, agreeing that it was the long line because the government told them it was.
AM:
I’m going to read this piece, by the way, I’ve missed this one. Sorry about that. This looks amazing.
MAA:
Oh, that’s okay.
AM:
I think everyone should read this.
MAA:
Then I tie in both the Wizard of Oz and The Matrix and talk about—I don’t know if you know, this is another psychological test, but are you familiar with the selective [attention], the gorilla test?
For people who haven’t seen it, I apologize for spoiling the surprise because when you watch the video, they’re telling you, the experiment says, “You have to count the number of times the ball is bounced.” Well, the audience and the subject count the number of times the ball is bounced. What they don’t notice is halfway through this experiment, this person in a giant gorilla suit just walks through. And because of selective attention, you as the audience and the person in the experiment, you don’t even see it. You don’t even notice it. Because counting the—and now I’m thinking maybe the audience is the experiment, the experimental subject. I don’t even think there is a real one in the video. But then you go back and watch the video, and you see, how obvious was that gorilla? How could I not have seen it?
AM:
I’m going to test it with my kids.
MAA:
This ties back to what we were talking about earlier where everybody has their pet passion project, and they think if you don’t focus on this, then there’s something wrong with you and they get mad at you and blame you and accuse you and all that. Well, that’s their selective attention, and they’re missing out on the bigger picture of what’s going on because they’re so myopically focused on whatever this particular cause is.
And that’s how the propagandists also control us—through that selective attention. Taylor Swift, football this, blah, blah, blah, whatever distraction bread-and-circus thing, they’re parading out in front of us so we focus on that instead of the man behind the curtain.
I do talk about—for the people who begin to recognize they were Good Germans—there is a path toward redemption and forgiveness if they take accountability. I talk about the model of the International Criminal Tribunal from Rwanda following the Rwandan genocide. And I will also have a little caveat about in that there are people who say the Rwandan genocide, the story behind that isn’t exactly as was presented. James Corbett recently had a couple of videos on it. I haven’t had a chance to delve into it. But assuming the official version of the story is true, which as we know, that obviously isn’t often the case, they did go through these different processes to heal the community, and it required the perpetrators to participate in these communal dialogues where they took responsibility for the abhorrent actions they committed during the Rwandan genocide.
Even if it wasn’t a genocide, my understanding is it doesn’t mean people didn’t die or were killed. It may have been more like a civil war type of situation, but you still had neighbors macheting their neighbors because they were whipped up into this by propaganda.
I talk about justice reconciliation and the possible path forward, and I’m extending a hand to the Good Germans from the Badass Germans to come on this intellectual adventure with us and wake up. And that’s of course what The Matrix is very much about, and it weaves in the imagery from The Wizard of Oz [I meant Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland—what a mistake for me to make 😆] throughout it, and she has a little white rabbit on her shoulder in this scene.
So I’m making all these different cultural references and taking them on this journey toward waking up.
AM:
It’s funny, talking about The Matrix. I’ve heard that even The Matrix thing isn’t what we were taught about. The people behind it were the Wachowski Brothers or Sisters, whoever they are now. They weren’t even the ones who really wrote the script. And it’s just funny, man. It gets deeper.
MAA:
Yeah, I’ve seen an interview with the woman who says she wrote the story as actually a sequel to The Terminator.
I don’t remember all the details, but it was really fascinating. I think she clearly knew these characters and these stories inside and out, and she had a very clear picture of the narrative arc she was taking people through toward this process of awakening. Apparently, she shared it with the Wachowski Brothers. It was turned down or something, but then they ended up doing this. I don’t really remember all the details, so I may be wrong on the precise mechanism of that. But I think she was compelling. I think she probably is the real author.
AM:
Wow. It’s just crazy, isn’t it? There’s so many layers.
MAA:
And in fact, I spoke to someone who was a graphic designer on The Matrix, and he believed her story that she was the real writer based on his experience of working on the set.
AM:
Oh, wow. Okay, Margaret, I’m getting really hungry now. I think I’m at twenty-two hours. Listen, I really enjoyed chatting to you. You are amazing.
MAA:
Aww, thank you.
AM:
It’s funny, I feel like I know you, even though we’ve only been in touch a few months. You’re my kindred spirit across the pond.
MAA:
The first time we spoke on the phone, I felt like you were a brother. I feel like we share the same passions, and we’re doing this for the same reasons, and we are just trying to understand the truth and approach it with as much clarity and humility as possible.
AM:
Can I ask you something, before my signature question? If you could say something to your readers, particularly your paid subscribers, what would you say to them?
MAA:
I first want to thank them for having the faith in me and feeling like what I am doing is important enough for them, especially in this financially precarious society, to contribute in a way that’s going to help, that makes this completely possible for me to do in a way that would be absolutely impossible for me to do.
They are the reason I can do this work. And only, I think maybe 1.85 percent, last I checked, of my readership actually are paid subscribers. So that makes them all the more important because every single one of them matters in terms of helping to feed my family, our cats—our thirteen feral cat rescues—with the prices of cat food doubling over the past year. Every single penny they’re willing to give, and they feel like what I’m doing is worth contributing to, that means so much to me, and I’m really grateful to each one of them.
AM:
If it’s any comfort, I can’t remember, it’s between 1 and 1.5 percent of my listeners are supporting paid subscribers. So you’re on the same kind of—
They’re the special ones, aren’t they? I have a very strong affinity and love for these people because like you, they make what I’m doing possible, which is otherwise impossible. It helps me remain uncaptured. My little brush with a big company just shows me how scary it can be trying to be in a position where you can support your family. You might make a decision, and it’s a really, really bad one. And I think I had a close brush with that. And it’s the fact that I have that 1 percent of subscribers who support me that allows this to happen, allows these conversations to happen, allows us to embolden people, reach out to people around the world and help wake them up. And those 1 percent, they might not be out there risking it all, but in their way of supporting you and I, they’re in the trenches still with us. You know how every army fighting for us has a logistics team. They’re our logistics. They’re making sure we can carry on fighting. They’re making sure we are getting our ammo. So I have a lot of love for them.
MAA:
Yeah, me too.
AM:
I think I’m sure you value and respect and love them just like I do.
Okay, so next. You’re on your deathbed. You’re surrounded by your loved ones and your thirteen cats. Don’t worry, it’s a very long time from now, what words of wisdom and advice would you give your loved ones before you pass on and meet your maker?
MAA:
I’ve thought about this. I think for me, it always comes down to integrity. Never compromise your integrity. It is your only quality or resource that once you damage it, you can never completely replenish it. And if you do something against your conscience, you are going to have to live with that for the rest of your life, and it’s going to eat away at you, and you’re going to be on your deathbed with your regrets. So don’t fail the Marshmallow Test. Think about the future to your deathbed and make sure you don’t have any regrets.
AM:
Beautiful. Funny, I didn’t know about the Marshmallow Test because over here, I know it’s a Cake Test. We had a documentary series with kids, The Life of a Child or whatever it was, and they would put a big cake, and they’d be like, “Don’t touch the cake.” And the teacher would leave and say, “When you come back, you’d get a really big slice,” and Margaret, no one no went for it.
MAA:
That’s actually a lot more tempting than a marshmallow!
AM:
Yeah, I know, right? It’s funny, I’ve said this to my kids though as well.
My little boy is so funny. I was like, “Baby, if you wait, instead of one chocolate button, I’ll give you two chocolate buttons. Do you want the two chocolate buttons later, or do you want the one chocolate button?”
“Daddy, I just want the chocolate button.”
“Oh God, you failed.”
But the two girls, they’re like, “We’ll wait, Daddy.”
I’m like, “Good.”
MAA:
Oh, good. Keep working on it. Willpower is a muscle. So each time you practice it, it gets stronger. And Meredith Miller and I talk about this in her Dissident Dialogue. And we do talk about the Marshmallow Test as well. I’ve gained so much wisdom from her. I really encourage people to read it, even though it’s really long. But I’ve been publishing it in parts, and she just has so much wisdom to bring.
AM:
I need to thank you for introducing me to her. I think I messaged her before you, actually, but you were still instrumental in that. And I love her, and I think—
MAA:
Yes, I actually told her about you first, and she signed up and was really excited to learn about you.
AM:
Well, she’s amazing. She’s another sister. And I love the fact you work so closely with her because she’s a kindred spirit, and she’s amazing. And hopefully, she’s coming on my show soon. I wanted to thank you about that.
I also wanted to thank you publicly because when I had that hit piece on me—and you’ll understand because you’re in the exact same situation. Overnight, I lost 10 percent of my subscribers, and then the week, I lost 15 percent of my subscribers. And that was an attack on my integrity, and that’s why I had to respond to it.
And what I really valued was, before I even got round to saying anything, you went straight away and commented and came to my defense and said, “Look, this is not fair. We haven’t heard Ahmad’s side of the story, and we don’t know the full picture.”
And the way it was done did paint me in a bad light. I’ll be honest with you. One of my listeners, you’ll find this funny, Margaret, one of my listeners went, “Ah, Ahmad, have you seen this yet? Paul Alexander mentions you.”
And I was like, “Really? I am just about to go to bed.” And I clicked this link, and I’m like, bleary-eyed, tired, about to go to sleep. I go, “Who is this stupid doctor? Who is this joker?” And that was my initial reaction, honestly, my split-second initial reaction. I was like, “Who’s this idiot?” And then I was like, “Oh shit, it’s about me. Oh God.” And I was like, “Okay, if I am thinking, who’s this idiot, why would everyone else not think the same thing? Oh my God, this is terrible. Oh shit, I need to respond to this.” So you are better than me. My initial reaction was like, “Who’s this idiot?” But you were like, “No, no, we need the full facts.”
And then I did that, and I think I came out even better. I came out on top. People can see the truth, and people can see the level of deceit, evil, and what the other side is up to. They don’t play fair. They’re not like us. They don’t play by the rules, and they’re not kind, and they’re pretty devious. But I just want to say thank you, I really appreciate that, by the way.
MAA:
Well, I know when I have been—I experienced a whisper campaign that was launched against me by someone I thought was a friend, and I wrote a piece about it called How to Be an Upstander.
And two people—I wouldn’t have even known about it except this person was behaving very bizarrely and gave me the silent treatment for months, and I wasn’t sure why—but Mickey Z. and Alicen Grey, who are both wonderful Stackers, came to my defense when she tried to whisper to them against me, and they let me know about it and brought the receipts in terms of the correspondence. And they were willing to go public with it.
So I used the term upstander, which comes from the documentary Bully and The Bully Project, and they coined this term “upstander.”
It means if you see someone being bullied, being maligned, being lied about, be an upstander. Stand up for them. Be courageous.
I know you. I know you’re a person of integrity. So when I read this, I know immediately this is not the full story and that we need to get context for this to make sense. It was obvious to me this was an intentional hit piece. And actually, I like Paul Alexander, and I feel like he’s the type of person who wears his heart on his sleeve, but I think he can also get whipped up emotionally and not necessarily assess the full details himself and just vomit out whatever he’s been told.
In a way, I like that about him because it’s like he’s totally transparent, but he should have come to you first, and he should have gotten the full story. So I’m trying to defend a person I know has been maligned wrongly and also try to help everybody see we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt. And trust your intuition, especially your readers. I’m disappointed in the ones who left because they know you. They should be familiar with you enough to know this was not a proper portrait of what had occurred. When people are so easily steered by propaganda, hit pieces, whatever, even if it’s from someone “on our side,” we need to exercise judgment, reason; trust our intuition; and not be manipulated, no matter who it’s coming from.
AM:
Oh, Margaret, as always, so wise.
Listen, everyone listening, I hope you’ve enjoyed this as much as I have, and please check out Margaret’s Substack. All the links will be there in the show notes. Support her if you can, please.
I think years from now, people will really appreciate the work you’re doing, Margaret, and your writings. It’s really going to stand out. I’m not just saying this, I mean this. There’s very few people like you with your talent and your wit and your humor and your critical eye for detail.
Keep doing what you’re doing. There seems to be a lot of people who are willing to support the likes of you and I, and hopefully, it will only grow with time.
I’m not one to say this, but maybe you and I both need to create better boundaries and give ourselves more time and not work like crazy people and burn out because the world needs you, Margaret, to keep doing what you’re doing. So you need to stay fit and healthy and happy and have energy. So take a break now and again, and as I’m saying this, I’m saying, well, Ahmad, you better take this advice yourself.
MAA:
I’m really good at giving advice I don’t take.
AM:
Yeah, I know. Alright, everybody, thank you so much, Margaret. God bless you.
MAA:
Thank you so much, Ahmad. It’s been a joy.
Note: I did some cleanup of the transcript for clarity and flow and inserted relevant links.
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